Since the muskie tag idea seems to be a fair approach for both anglers & spearers and would decrease the overall harvest significantly, what is currently in the works, if anything, within the MDNR to make that a reality. The "Sturgeon for Tomorrow" program currently is set up to allow more access while still protecting the sturgeon population. It does seem that this approach gives everyone an equal opportunity to keep 1 or 2 muskies each season while protecting the fisheries. Also, I realize that the darkhouse people can & do make a fair argument over the fact that open water anglers do kill more muskies. However, I mentioned this in another post and many on here know of the Noble Beast Project which I believe has tagged/tracked over 30+ muskies caught under "normal" catch & release methods and I don't believe a single fish has died due to delayed mortality. The example given regarding the fisherman who killed 9 muskies on Six Mile lake has nothing to do with the delayed mortality argument but 7-8 muskies would have been saved had the muskie tag regulation been in place at that time. For those in the know, what has been the overall feedback, both positive & negative, around the tag idea.
I do agree with Will that the issue is fish harvested. In my opinion open water anglers probably do harvest more fish, but I would definitely say that your average spearer targeting muskies, kills many more than your average open water fisherman. That is my problem with spearing… they pride themselves on how many fish they killed, or how big of a fish they killed. I pride myself on how many fish I released, or how big of a fish I released. Some might say elitist, I prefer conservationist.
Obviously I would like to see a ban on spearing, but in fairness I do recognize that a tag system would be the most fair for all parties. A tag system would reduce harvest of muskies, resulting in more swimming around… I am all for that!
Will, I never stated that open water fishing takes less musky than winter spearing. Never even came close to saying that. I know that this is true and never disputed it. The 3 threads that popped up on this board all had to do with spearing. Spearing at Austin, the UP and a third. So members became angry and concerned about spearing. To say that spearing wasn't the issue would puzzle most.
I think we are mixing symantics here, meaning problems, symptoms, root causes and solutions.
To some the problem might seem to be the DNR's inability to see musky as a fragile resourse and therefore change the musky regs. to one or two per season.
To some the problem might in our lack of influence on the DNR to understand the above point, we need some data.
To some the problem might be spearing of musky in general or the extended spearing season.
To some the problem might be the killing of any musky period.
The solution to many of these "problems" is to have the musky regs. changed to perhaps the tag system.
"Jim tenHaaf" said:
I'm just saying that we want 0% of the lakes open for spearing.
Honestly, I don't want that at all. Elimination of one method of harvest opens the door for the elimination of another. Put it this way…
If I was into spearing muskies I would be pissed at the catch and release angler because they catch and release many sub legal muskies, some of which die (delayed mortality). My opinion would also be that my method (spearing), though it kills fish, is very selective and only harvests legal fish. Therefore I would like to see angling banned on the waters I spear because it is undescriminantly killing muskies.
I know, sounds crazy right… but is it really that far away from wanting to ban spearing?
"Jim tenHaaf" said:
I know spearing will never be eliminated. I can see where the argument is coming from. But if we give them an inch, they'll fight for a foot. If we fight for 25%, maybe they'll only wind up with 50% which is a whole lot better.
Which all comes back around to working with them (if possible). The only way I see these two special interest groups coming together is if all waters are open to spearing (w/ exceptions) but put the tag system in place.
How bout we challenge them to a 5v5 basketball game, winner takes all! Sorry, had to put a little humor in this conversation 😀 .
I also like the idea of a tag system, but I'm sure the dark house guys wont at all. They can spear as many as they want right now (at 1/day of course) so why would they want that number to go all the way down to 1 or 2. Is the idea of opening 99% of the musky waters that much of an incentive to them?
Also, I am assuming there are more open-water musky fishermen than musky ice-fishermen so wouldn't the idea/fact of more muskies getting killed during open-water be swayed because of the number difference? Shouldn't we be looking at how many fish one angler (1 open-water, 1 ice) keeps based on averages? ex. if there are 100 open-water anglers and 50 fish are kept then .5 fish is kept per fisherman where as if there are 25 ice fishermen and 25 fish are kept then 1 fish/angler is being kept.
I feel like I'm in math class again
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I completely agree with the tag system, even if it does mean opening up more waters to spearing. The more I sit back and think about it and read what others think without letting my emotions get in the way, the more I realize that spearing itself ISNT the issue as Will stated. It's overharvest, and in this case it just took spearing to bring that to the forefront. The most disturbing part of that thread was the fact that the 1 guy had 3 adult fished already speared, not to mention how many more he may kill by March 15. And he obviously isnt doing it to eat all them, it is clearly about ego. He even bragged about going out every chance possible until he breaks the state record, so bringing home food for the table has absolutely nothing to do with it. Ultimately I see where the tag issue could cut down on overall harvest much more than by banning spearing alone, so I am 100% for it.
"Esoxonthefly" said:
Bring on the tag system for everyone. There has to be a way everyone can enjoy muskie fishing without singling out or discriminating against one group.
Im just playing devil's advocate here but I think the dark house guys will believe the tag system is singling them out. They will argue that we, MMA and most open-water musky fishermen, already practice CPR so the tag system is a back door way to cut out spearing.
"jasonvkop" said:
[quote="Esoxonthefly"]Bring on the tag system for everyone. There has to be a way everyone can enjoy muskie fishing without singling out or discriminating against one group.
Im just playing devil's advocate here but I think the dark house guys will believe the tag system is singling them out. They will argue that we, MMA and most open-water musky fishermen, already practice CPR so the tag system is a back door way to cut out spearing.
I agree, which is why it can't even smell like it has anything to do with spearing and in reality it doesn't. Muskie anglers make up such a small percentage of the overall angling public that just because we practice C&R that leaves another million+ anglers that are not muskie anglers. Bottom line, this is a species already in low numbers and in many instances barely hanging on. They can't be managed like many other species and as such deserve additional protection. Muskie fishing could have a substantial econmoic impact on Michigan tourism if the fishery improves.
"Jim tenHaaf" said:
So what would be the chances of doing the tag AND getting the size limit up? Say, we shoot for 50", they counter with 46" and we take it.
The darkhouse group proposed a 30 or 36" size limit a couple years ago…
A size limit increase needs to have some scientific basis. If the increase is only to satisfy the interests of a small group of anglers that think a larger size limit will make bigger fish for them to catch… well… that simply isn't a reason to increase the limit. On the other hand if a certain self sustaining fishery needs a size limit increase because females are over the legal size before they are mature and able to spawn that is a real reason to increase the size limit.
I thought I would keep adding fuel to the fire. This was taken directly from the MI Darkhouse website:
"Last, but very important, is the misconception that winter spearfishermen hurt northern pike populations. Countless DNR studies from many states show that, at worst, Darkhouse spearing, has no major impact on northern pike populations. The most recent research is from the Minnesota DNR and published in 2000. The research concluded, in part: “Spearing is selective for the largest northern pike in a population. It removes (on average) a small proportion of fish with increasing size. Recreational angling, by comparison, removes an even greater proportion of the larger-sized fish in a population.”
And yes, if the term “catch and release” comes up, Darkhouse anglers “look and release” without tearing the mouth out of the fish by using large treble hooks and subjecting the fish to temperature damaging, below freezing conditions. “Catch and release” is an option, provided all fishermen. If they “choose” to keep a fish and not “release” it, that is their “option” under Michigan natural resource law. Darkhouse anglers do the same, only they “look and release.” Should they choose to harvest the fish, they do so with their spear, enjoying the moment the same as the hook and line angler does when reducing the legally taken fish to his possession.
In conclusion, every fish biologist will tell you that “length of growing season” and “availability of food”, dictates sizes and numbers of fish, not genetics"
I love how they try to make hook and line fisherman seem like the bad guys. I wonder if they make spears for spearing spearers! Perhaps in the near future a tag system will come to fruition. I'm sure this debate gets stirred up every winter and I've been following along with the current Minnesota Cass Lake posts from Muskiefirst. Maybe we would all benefit by having the MN, WI, & MI DNR, Muskies Inc, etc. all working together for a common cause. I realize not every state is the same, but we can't be that much different when it comes to spearing.
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