"LonLB" said:
I think it would depend on how the guide conducts himself too. If he's giving you feedback, talking about what you might do, or are doing, etc vs just fishing as if you aren't there.
Totally agree. All of the guides I have fished with are constantly watching my bait looking for follows, telling us about an underwater rock point, telling us the contours in weedline, etc. I am also asking questions constantly trying to learn as much as I can during the day. Even if we are throwing bucktails the whole day, I am asking how they fish depth raiders or if they prefer a weagle to a one-eyed willie or any other racndom fishing question I can think of.
I do not want a guide to ever be the first bait through. Scott and I fished with Doug Samsal and he insisted on first bait through. I did not like netting his fish and never hired him again.
Hulbert and Spencer fish from the back of the boat and neither ask if it is OK. I think if I am paying for the charter then they should ask.
At AML you have one guide who targets the big fish for himself and I refuse to fish with him. He once worked a Doc in front of a big fish to "lead" the fish to me. Never hired him again.
The great guide that used to work at AML, Cal, would be last bait through. He gave out great advice and tips all day. He pulled baits away from fish and handed you the lure. He once had a low 50s fish in a figure 8 and gave us a lesson on how to speed up and slow down a fish. He never hooked the fish but the lesson was very valuable to me. If I ever head back to Eagle it would be to fish with Cal.
To me it all boils down to intent. If the guide is teaching and helping you then it should be your choice. If he is just trying to catch the big fish then I say bungle up the net job as best you can.
And a lot of this can be handled with simple communication before hand. I always want the guide fishing, but if other people don't want the guide fishing then just let him or her know that prior to any payment. If the guide wants to fish and a potential client doesn't want him or her to fish, then the guide can simply not take that person out.
"jasonvkop" said:
And a lot of this can be handled with simple communication before hand. I always want the guide fishing, but if other people don't want the guide fishing then just let him or her know that prior to any payment. If the guide wants to fish and a potential client doesn't want him or her to fish, then the guide can simply not take that person out.
exactly, for example, over the phone when you book the trip…..you should know how its all going to work before you head out the door. investing that kina money, im going to get what I want. just like anything else , youve got to do homework.
It's alot of guides that do it. Hell, there's a MN guide who actually has the practice of catching hogs while you net them named after him. He's legendary for it and he's a "old" guide. It's very common and I think there's a couple reasons for it.
I'm friends with a few guides and if their clients are jerks, or know-it-alls, or clowns or whatever, they'll text me and tell me how horrible their clients are that day. One had a guy hook and loose five fish in one day, one over 50. But at the end of the day, the guide had one hooked fish and he landed it and posted a pic. So who had more luck, opportunities and success? The client with the numerous fish lost due to the fact he was holding his rod high and hoping for the fish to jump to get it on his GoPro, or the guide who hooked one fish from the back of the boat and got it in the net? The guide did his job, the client just couldn't close the deal(s).
Another factor is just plain fishing ability. Some people are just better fishermen than others. I'd consider myself an average muskie fisherman. But I'll have friends from out of state come to fish, and they'll get in my boat and it's a ghost town on their rod while I'm getting follows and caught fish. My buddy from IN came up and I had five fish in the boat before he had a follow; both throwing blades on Trinidads. So I gave him the bow…I still caught fish from the back while he went fishless. I had to STOP fishing to get him a fish in the boat. Now it's not because I'm some sort of muskie maestro, but I know the little tricks that most of us here know in working baits; speeding up, changing directions, better 8's, and the fact that I'm used to working a Trinidad all day while he was getting tired, answering texts every five minutes, eating a sandwich, and wanting to swap baits every other cast. And he knew it and didn't fault me for catching fish. My buddy is typical of many muskie clients in that something we take as an every day task is foreign to them and they're just not in mental or physical shape for it and don't have the little skills that make a difference in getting fish to move.
I've only fished with a guide a couple times; two different guides. One I was flyfishing with and he didn't even fish because he was working the boat so carefully for me on Mille Lacs in 20 mph winds. He and I are good friends to this day, having fished probably 12 years ago now. The other I fished with last year, also in MN, because I was still on a weak leg and couldn't launch at the time easily by myself. First day, both of us running (identical) blades on fast reels from the same side of the boat, me in the front, I get a follow from a mid 40's and as I'm doing that he hooks a 51 and boats it. Just how it went. He asked if I wanted him to fish, I did, so he fished and turns out he landed a helluva fish 20' behind me.
So I don't know if it's a trend as much as it comes down to the individual guide and the clients they have in the boat. Some guides are meat hogs pure and simple. Some guides boat a fish while their moron client who's never caught a bluegill botches fish all day long. And sometimes it's just pure luck of the draw.
Luck of the draw coming to my boat the last few weeks… One day I boat three muskies on a fly in front of my lovely girlfriend while she sees nada. Two days later I can't get a follow and she's got fish going berzerk in the back of the boat, with a monster in the net. Just different presentations and what those stupid, hateful fish wanted on each day.
Muskies are stupid.
"esoxfly" said:
Muskies are stupid.
That made me laugh. Its certainly something I've said aloud once or 100 times while fishing.
Muskie guiding seems to be the only form of guiding that I know of where its common for the guide to fish. Muskie are obviously much more difficult to catch than most fish. I guess it comes down to if the guide's goal is to teach the person how to fish for them, or just get one in the net.
If it were me, I would rather come away from the trip knowing more about muskies and fishing for them than before the day began. I would take that a thousand times over putting fish in the net.
I agree with vito, sure you book the trip with hopes of catching that monster, but i feel some people are more concerned with only catching a pig and not really learning what to do and not do.
I think it depends too on if the people booking the trip actually muskie fish year round or are just booking a trip to try to catch their first muskie. I feel those people would prob not understand the need to have more than 1 person casting etc..
[quote="Will Schultz"]Just to throw this out there on the debate of the handed off fish… Consider it like trolling, if you are trolling does the fish you catch still count or is that not your fish and really caught by the boat since the boat was holding the rod. Think back to when you first started and had never caught a muskie or hadn't caught very many, would you have taken the rod?quote]
I really wouldn't consider casting for muskies the same as trolling.? Casting is all about presentation, how you work the bait and read the water. The STRIKE is everything in muskie fishing! We wouldnt sometimes fish for weeks straight without catching a fish if they were salmon. If Salmon were as hard to catch as Muskie we wouldnt have ludington, manistee, etc. Salmon trolling is about the fight not the strike so taking a rod out of a rod holder is acceptable because it is open for grabs.
"chucknduck" said:
Salmon trolling is about the fight not the strike
Have you tried casting for them in the big lake? They will about rip the rod out of your hand.
If the goal is just to reel in a fish, I see no difference between trolling and a guide handing off a rod. The same thing happens…you fight/reel in a fish.
"Vito" said:
Muskie guiding seems to be the only form of guiding that I know of where its common for the guide to fish. Muskie are obviously much more difficult to catch than most fish. I guess it comes down to if the guide's goal is to teach the person how to fish for them, or just get one in the net.
I agree Matt, I fish with the worlds greatest trout guide and he rarely throws a fly unless its to show his older brother how to. Then its back to positioning the boat and tying flies onto freshly snagged line for his client. I still have so much to learn about muskie fishing that I would gladly sit in the back of the boat and observe my guide's techniques as he hooks a large one. Some the great guys that I have fished with have taught me well, learned a ton from Jason, notably how to catch fish with wabulls and weagles :-). Scott, Ed hellhound masters! Chad on the trolling side. Mike on the Dawgs and twitch. Hopefully fish flies with you yet this year Matt!
I guess my point is I would be thrilled to see my guide fish and catch a Muskie. I think the guide should ask the client if he can use the picture for promotional purposes, perhaps mention the client in the promotion as it was the clients trip or make a fee adjustment if it's that important to use it for advertising.
Just my $2…
I agree with what most said…I've only fished with a few guides and most of them were professional and main goal was to teach and put you on fish. There's a difference between wanting to go learn a local lake and hire a guide and traveling for a 2-4 day trip in hopes of landing a trophy fish. Theres a difference in trophy guiding and guiding for knowledge. A good guide can show a client what to do w/o picking up a rod for guys like anyone on this forum who are skilled anglers. Thorpe would tell us "slow down, speed up, cast there, no a little farther, keep bait high there's rocks there, etc". If your traveling to trophy water destinations like Ottawa, LSC, and several others I don't need to name then most likely a good popular guide is pretty dialed in and can experiment with presentations when there's 2 anglers in the boat. Theres a difference in fishing with a guide on trophy water you travel too in hopes on a monster. A system or lake you won't fish on your own because you don't live there. Then there's the local lake you hire a guide to learn more, watch him fish and have a better understanding of how you'll attack the lake on your own. I went to Ottawa to fish with Thorpe for 2 reasons. One to catch fish possible trophy fish and to be able to fish 4 consecutive days in a row with a good friend. I have no shame in admitting that I'd be a little pissed if I got there and all 4 days Thorpe fished, boated a few trophy's while I spent $1200 and watched the guide try and boat fish with 2 clients in the boat. He verbally taught us what to do by talking us through areas, how to cast, what to throw etc. I have to believe there's very few guides like Will, Chad, Thorpe, Lazarus that will be disciplined enough to pull bait away from fish or focus on strictly getting the client a big fish.
If i hired Will to learn Antrim Chain or SW lakes a bit more then I would expect and want Will to fish so I could learn more on a system I would potentially fish on my own. If he caught a beast, so be it. I'd be happy and would have learned something. That's different then hiring a guide specifically to boat a trophy.
Look at it this way… In Fall on LSC the system fishes small in some areas and every single guide and guys that fish this system know where the highest concentration of fish are. It can be narrowed down significantly. Of course Theres many many other great fall spots but generally speaking guides know where to go to find big fish, decent fish and lots lots lots of them. The guides very well could instruct most clients that have fishing knowledge on what to do, what to throw and how to present the bait. If clients are payin for a fall trophy during this time frame it's not vital for a guide to fish and target these fish. They can wait it out, hope weather doesn't trump fishing activity and talk to the client on how to slow down, speed up or work the bait.
In summary it all depends on your goals when fishing with a guide and what you want to accomplish. Then there's choosing the right guide to fit your needs. There's guides that really enjoy and care to put clients on fish and then there's guides who take you out in hopes of getting you a fish as well as themselves boating some big fish.
I was fortunate to fish with a guide many people think was the most knowledgeable guide on Lake of the Woods/Whitefish Bay. He started guding when motors were in limited use and a guide moved you from area to area by paddling the boat. He was quite old when I first fished with him. He never fished when guiding 2 people and when he did fish it was very limited. He stated to me that he rarely had fished during the old days because his job was to put the client in the best position to catch fish.
He further stated the when motors became better and more widely used he still limited his fishing. His son who guides us now rarely fishes, there have been times that I have taken his position in the boat and had him fish so I could have a break.
I have fished with other guides who fished from the bow with you and didn't seem to care to teach you about the area you are fishing or concern about putting you on fish. I would not fish any of those guides again ! After those experiences I have questioned various guides about how they fish.
BOB
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