"Kingfisher" said:
you really want to get the boat right over the fish before you strike.
Hmm… not sure I would agree with that unless it's small suckers (10" or under) with a single treble. The worst possible place to hook a fish is in the roof of the mouth, seems like they come undone 75% of the time.
I'm more interested in the rig he was using and why it didn't break free. Were any of the hook points stuck into the sucker when she let it go?
I was using what essentially is just a "Herbie Rig" that I make myself. I run about 4-5' of 130lb fluoro down to snap with a rubber band. I then run either one or two 174lb 7-strand leads to the sucker. I have went more towards just one lead with one large 5/0 treble as opposed to the two. It's probably just coincidence but I was using two leads on all my suckers last year and couldn't get bit, as soon as I switched to one lead it seemed like the suckers stayed more active and I started getting bit consistently. I always bend one of the hooks so I can slide it under the skin and it leaves the other two points sticking out, usually in prime position for when it gets T-boned. I then position the boat until the fish is moving away from me and let them have it. This set-up worked flawlessly last fall with the exception of the one lost fish I mentioned at the end of my story. This year it's 0 for 5 and it's got me re-thinking my entire approach.
That's what I was guessing, it seems like that happens too often with that type of rig. I've found that keeping everything in a straight line and on one side of the sucker works very well on normal size suckers. With smaller suckers 11-14" I will put one hook on each side of the back just to keep the sucker balanced, it keeps them healthy longer. The rigs I'm using (see photo) are made with 4/0 hooks, 90# 49 strand, two double barrel crimps and one single crimp to keep the strip clevis from sliding. So far this fall in my boat the hookset to land ratio is about 80% resulting in just over 40 fish in the net. I'll take that percentage any time with suckers! The only thing I've been experimenting with is how I'm bending the brazed hook point, below they're at about a 100 degree angle to the hook shank but lately I've been straightening that hook completely and just letting the barb hold the skin of the sucker. In theory I like it better but time will tell.
As far as where the fish should be, you're right on to have them moving away. I like to have them at a 45 degree or more but not more than 20' from the boat if possible. Getting them moving away can be challenging, especially if I have to hand the rod to someone for them to set the hook.
I am surprised though that fish wouldn't come back and eat the sucker after dropping it, over the years I'll bet 90% of the fish I've had that happen with came right around and ate the sucker again.
"><url url="[Permission to view this media is denied]<url url="[Permission to view this media is denied]
"><link_text text="[Permission to view this media is denied] … d415c4.jpg">[Permission to view this media is denied]
” alt=”
"><link_text text="[Permission to view this media is denied] … d415c4.jpg">[Permission to view this media is denied]
” />
Yes, there is a huge advantage to the single hook in the nose of the sucker. With the single hook attached using a light crank bait snap if the hook doesn't pull free the snap opens, guaranteed to break free of the sucker. The second advantage which is probably more important to me, is that the rig is simple to hook up and takes just seconds which is extremely important on a day when it's 20 degrees.
Anytime I have had a heartbreak on a sucker…it has been the hook buried in the sucker…and like you….feels like the fish is pinned as they rarely let go right away….and like Will said; keeping it in the water has paid off in the past. I have been thinking hard about how to eliminate this issue. It would seem there is a risk as long as the point of the hook is parallel or bent outward. A curved in hook would probably be less likely to bite into the sucker as it gets pulled past on the hook-set, but hook percentage would probably go down. This winter I will work on some ideas. Sucks though…been there!
"vano397" said:
[quote="Will Schultz"]I am surprised though that fish wouldn't come back and eat the sucker after dropping it, over the years I'll bet 90% of the fish I've had that happen with came right around and ate the sucker again.
Or another sucker… 👿
I was thinking the same thing, I gave her plenty of opportunities.
"Will Schultz" said:
With smaller suckers 11-14"
[smilie=tongue.gif]
"Will Schultz" said:
"><url url="[Permission to view this media is denied]<url url="[Permission to view this media is denied]
"><link_text text="[Permission to view this media is denied] … d415c4.jpg">[Permission to view this media is denied]
” alt=”
"><link_text text="[Permission to view this media is denied] … d415c4.jpg">[Permission to view this media is denied]
” />
These rigs rock. I'm at 100% hookup so far.
"Scott Williams" said:
Sorry to hear Ryan, but at least a good one ate for you.Will, do you run heavy mono, or flouro to the rig? Just wondering how you attach the rig to your main line.
Mainline is 100# braid to a length of 150# flouro. The length of flouro (2.5 to 4') will change depending on the water. The clearer the water the longer I will run the flouro just to keep the weight a little farther away from the sucker. The flouro has a heavy swivel on one end and a solid ring with a splitring on the other.
My rigs are pretty similar to Will's as far as the front hook going through the suckers mouth. One mod I made was to run the wire through the small hook's eyelet and added a crimp behind the small hook on the wire (to stop the small hook from moving reward on the rig). This allowed me to add an additional 2" of wire in front of the sucker's head before going to a solid ring and then a leader of flouro. This modification was to hopefully keep all metal in the fish's mouth and keep the flouro out. Still tinkering.
"Tory" said:
This modification was to hopefully keep all metal in the fish's mouth and keep the flouro out.
I've been considering swapping out the 130lb fluoro on my main leader to the 174lb 7-strand I use for my leads for the same reason. I have yet to have a fish swallow the rig enough to get to the fluoro, and hopefully I never do, but if it does that fluoro worries me. I once witnessed a 48" snap 150lb fluoro in half like it was nothing. It was while the fish was in the net which is totally different but still, since then I won't use fluoro on any of my casting leaders.
Do you guys ever have an issue with the front single hook wiggling free from the suckers mouth? I only ask because when I first started using suckers a few years back the first rigs I used I had the hook instead of the rubber band and it seemed like every time I went to check on a sucker the hook had broke free and the sucker was just being held on by the trebles.
"Tory" said:
My rigs are pretty similar to Will's as far as the front hook going through the suckers mouth.
I place that hook across the top of the mouth and not inside their mouth. Inside the mouth seems to have a negative impact on their breathing.
"><url url="[Permission to view this media is denied]<url url="[Permission to view this media is denied]
"><link_text text="[Permission to view this media is denied] … Sucker.jpg">[Permission to view this media is denied]
” alt=”
"><link_text text="[Permission to view this media is denied] … Sucker.jpg">[Permission to view this media is denied]
” />
"Tory" said:
One mod I made was to run the wire through the small hook's eyelet and added a crimp behind the small hook on the wire (to stop the small hook from moving reward on the rig).
I tried putting the hook directly on the wire but there were things I didn't like about it. First off when that hook broke it was a pain to get another hook added. Then I had some concerns with the hook having only one way to pull free with no snap to open. When I used them with the hook attached directly to the wire I used light wire aberdeen hooks and they would straighten upon hook set which was nice but that takes me back to point number one that often when putting a bend back in the hook it would break.
"Smada962" said:
[quote="Tory"]This modification was to hopefully keep all metal in the fish's mouth and keep the flouro out.
I've been considering swapping out the 130lb fluoro on my main leader to the 174lb 7-strand I use for my leads for the same reason. I have yet to have a fish swallow the rig enough to get to the fluoro, and hopefully I never do, but if it does that fluoro worries me. I once witnessed a 48" snap 150lb fluoro in half like it was nothing. It was while the fish was in the net which is totally different but still, since then I won't use fluoro on any of my casting leaders.
I'm really not comfortable with flouro on many lures but in this situation it's really best on the fish, I don't want them wrapping up in wire and this time of year they like to spin. Using the flouro has nothing to do with being invisible, it's completely for the health of the muskie. As far as getting the flouro in their mouth, it would only happen during the fight. If you're keeping lots of pressure on them to make them move away from the boat they aren't going to turn the sucker. With hundreds of fish on suckers I've never had a problem with the flouro, crimps and wire… well that's another story. I think I've finally found the perfect wire, with double barrel crimps.
"Smada962" said:
Do you guys ever have an issue with the front single hook wiggling free from the suckers mouth? I only ask because when I first started using suckers a few years back the first rigs I used I had the hook instead of the rubber band and it seemed like every time I went to check on a sucker the hook had broke free and the sucker was just being held on by the trebles.
No, if you hook it in the location seen above it should only pull out on hook set. Be sure to grab flesh and not just skin or when they dive into the weeds that hook could pull free.
Ya, I put the small hook through the top lip, never has seemed to impose their breathing or failed to pull free on hook set. Probably a personal preference thing. I actually have had a fish hit the sucker at the head with the leader sticking out of the mouth….didnt cut through it but did damage the leader….I change the leader out anytime I have any noticeable fraying or cuts. Have never had Seaguar flouro break or get cut through (I think you get what you pay for in regards to leader material…although I am sure freak stuff can happen to any brand), even back when I was using 80lb. Anything that improves the physics of how the hooks pull past the sucker on the hook set would be an improvement. Having sticky sharp hooks pull past a sucker, with the intent of biting flesh and bone only in the fish is a tricky deal. I have had very good hook percentages too; although some of my worst freak stuff occurred in the last year and generally on the bigger ones. I refer to this era as the Tenhaff curse; worse than a banana in the boat. Oh well. Sucker fishing is ever evolving. Tweak as you go and learn from your mistakes. Thanks Will for posting your stuff…fun to learn what everyone is doing. and Ryan, even though you missed that fish…even with suckers, it isnt a total no brainer, so you were still doing something right. you will get her next time. I will post my rigs when I get a chance.
Great thread, thanks all. I've done some things wrong in the past, and didn't get suckers this fall but will change my rigs for future efforts. I stubbornly try to connect without suckers if at all possible. But count me in when it gets tough enough, and it's been tough enough plenty of times in late fall.
368
47