Kevin, you are correct on unskilled anglers. But again that number is probably as low as the spear kill. Not enough to get worked up about. We lose more if wake the sleeping giant and start a war with Fred Trost and the Spearing comunity. At least the way it is we are gaining thousands of Muskies every year. We need to be more patient and let what we have already set in motion achieve its directive. I am excited about the future of Michigans Muskies. Duke, the Northern chains are not hanging on by a thread. We saw little ones all through the rivers from Intermediate to Ellsworth. Both the Indian river system and the torch lake systems could use some supplimental stocking but even that doesnt need to be handled like a life or death situation.10,000 well placed 10 inch fingerlings would more than make up for any losses those lakes have incurred. The main target we should all be looking at is getting the spotteds back in the drowned river mouths now. Macatawa, Mona, Muskegon, White, etc etc etc . These lakes are dying from overabundance of Carp,Sheepshead and Gizzard Shad. When we are seeing sheeps head now becoming headline news in west Michigan we have a problem and that is exactly what we have. Please guys lets leave the seasons alone and keep doing what we have been doing. I have another post related to this one coming up. Mike and Michelle
When they're spawning it seems like there are fish everywhere but in fact its lucky if there is one fish for every ten acres. What you saw were the spawning fish from Intermediate concentrated in a small area. I can give you times and places in many northern lakes where you would think it's got as many fish as a stocked southern lake when in fact it's situational.
For many reasons, not just killed fish the lakes are declining. The problem is that we'll be lucky if in my lifetime we have 100,000 muskies/yr to supplement the lakes in the in the north and the drowned rivermouth lakes. Protecting these fish during spawning only makes sense. When we finally get some of the drowned rivermouth lakes stocked we'll see the same issue. Fish making a spawning run into water with an open season. Like the salmon that get pitchforked each year these fish will be fighting an uphil battle unless protected. If not protected they will end up as the southern lake, nothing more than a put-and-take fishery. I'm of the opinion that St Clair is the way it is due to the spawning closure and not the spearing ban.
I was talking about the little shavers we saw. Sure we saw the big ones paired up and such but they were not very interested in eating. What I was telling Duke was the fact that we saw several 15 to 18 inchers . One right near our dock. If we were seeing the small ones that goes a long way to saying the natural reproduction is doing well and a couple of supplimental stockings would be a great reviving of these lakes. I just dont think drastic changes are in order. We invite war with the other side every time we start talking size limits, seasonal changes and spearing bans. What I dont understand is why havent the D.N.R. harvested some eggs from the Torch chain and restocked it? even one pond full would be a great push forwards. I know they added fish in the torch chain a while back so Im sure they have the means to do it again. Lets let the Iowa program sit for a year and pursue some spotteds for those northern lakes. Mike and Michelle
As far as the drowned river mouths go that is exactly why I opposed stocking them in the beginning. We had a couple thousand fish per year and it would have been a waste to stick them in huge lakes where they were swallowed up and dissapeared. Most of the smaller stocked lakes can be sustained by Fry stocking now at least for a couple of years. If they would just switch over for a few years to harvesting eggs from the spotteds we could get that program off the ground. I dont think they could do both at the hatchery. They could however hatch fry and put them in the lakes like Osterhout,campau, thornapple ,Hudson and etc etc while they get some spotteds going in the ponds. I would suggest this to linda. Another thing to take into account is the steadily rising temperatures every spring. Call it global warming. It seems that we have had a lot of early springs with water temps hitting 80 in the upper pen by mid june. We may find ourselves going the other way in ten years looking at fish spawning in early april. Just a few more observations, Mike and Michelle
Compared to what the historical populations were in those lakes prior to development, and especially prior to dam construction, those fisheries most certainly are hanging on by a thread. Those dams are tantamount to the lifeblood being cut off from the lakes, and not just for the migrating muskies but for every other fish in the whole stinkin ecosystem that relies upon or benefits from the riverine and connecting habitats. I may be wrong, and I would LOVE to be, but I have not heard one word of a "rebound" of populations up there. Every one knows the glory days stories, and the decline, but is the current state of leveled off (hopefully) at a lower level, or still declining??
We've got this thread covering a LOT of stuff and hopefully it has been interesting reading. This, of course, is nothing more than discussion
The stocking done in Indian River and Skegemog were a payback from Wisconsin. Michigan has never done GLS at the hatchery.
The investment into these waters and the drowned rivermouth lakes is more important in my opinion than maintaining the stocked lakes. This is something the esocid committee has been exploring as well as how to make it happen.
For sure the stocked lakes have good populations and could stand several years of just getting fry. If the ponds are not full of northern strain they could raise the spots at the hatchery. Im not advocating abandoning the northern program just the raising of the fingerlings. Will, what is the average egg take that converts to fry every year? would there be enough Fry to go around for the stocked lakes? Mike
With the exception of Hudson and maybe a couple others planting fry would be a complete waste of fish. The problem with stocking 1/2" fish is that they are simply food for EVERYTHING in the lake. It was thought that with the color of Macatawa that fry planting would be successful but it wasn't. With the bluegill populations in most lakes they are shallow when the fry go in and it's a feeding frenzy. Stocking fry is not an acceptable way to maintain what has been built in any of the stocked lakes.
Spring fingerlings are a better choice but the stocking needs to be done at a much higher rate than fall fingerlings. Otsego was stocked with spring fingerlings this year at ten fish per acre with undersized spring fingerlings (2.6"). This should have some success but would have been much more successful if the fish had reached at least 4". The timing is much better than fry plants because spring fingerlings would be planted in mid to late July when weed growth would provide good cover for them to hide.
The drawbacks:
– these are not minnow trained fish
– they haven't been exposed to overhead predators
– if stocked at an appropriate 20 fish per acre only 5000 acres of water could be stocked.
Wisconsin and Ohio have both studied this and both have determined that the best survival to number stocked needs to be fall fingerlings that are at least 8" – 10-12" is even better.
I'm doing this from memory so if Martha gives slightly different numbers at the banquet don't shoot me, or her!
The egg take was reduced last year, in the past the goal was just over 2 million fertilized eggs in 2006 just over 1 million. This still resulted in a huge number of fry that was beyond capacity for the hatchery. The excess was split out to Murray and Cooke Dam Pond in mid-May. As growth progressed additional spring fingerlings were sent to Otsego leaving the number in the hatchery aroung 60K. Those numbers were reduced (cannibalism/health) to around 50k by the time the fish were moved to the ponds in August. They were minnow trained in the ponds and stocked in October which resulted in about 14 thousand fall fingerlings stocked.
With no simple/cost effective way to take GLS eggs the hatchery can't raise them. Taking anything from the Great Lakes isn't an option and timing is a significant hurdle. The only reasonable option is to build a broodstock lake using captured adult fish – not a simple task.
This whole arguement/discussion kind of reminds me of the Quality Deer Management discussion. Which is where personal feelings and not really scientific data gets thrown out on my part.
Michigan with the exception of LSC will never compare to the fisheries of Minnesota and Wisconsin. What I mean is these states have made muskies and musky fishing a priority for what ever reason and aggresively stocked the fish. They also made intellegent season and size limit changes in order to get the most return on their investment.
Changing the seasons on lakes that don't have natural reproduction does nothing for the system except promote poaching. It will cut down on fishing pressure and take away from the local economy. It will look to the outside public that we are doing nothing other than reaching for a trophy fishery which is exactly the opposite of Michigan mentality, we are a limit state.
Open the season year round on the lakes that have no natural reproduction and get more people involved with the sport. Make season reflect what is best for the reproduction in the lakes that have it.
Sometimes killing fish is leaps and bounds better for the fishery than trying to keep them all alive and big.
It's getting to the point where I feel we should cut the hooks off the baits and just watch the fish. We can't fish until June and then we get ridiculed if we fish in the hot water of July, I am serious why not just have season open from 9/1 til 3/15 and let the spearers have equal time on lakes with out natural reproduction.
Dan…
If our attitude is that "it will never be" – then, of course, it will neve be.
Minnesota is a perfect example of people that weren't willing to simply accept what they had and weren't going to sit around and wait for things to be handed to them. Here is some data from Muskies, Inc. on the number of fish caught from a few of the most popular waters in Minnesota. I think this speaks volumes about what can be done in Michigan.
Minnetonka
Before 2000 – 93
Since 2000 – 747
Mille Lacs
Before 2000 – 256
Since 2000 – 1161
Vermillion
Before 2000 – 401
Since 2000 – 1982
it isn't my attitude it is the states, it is and I don't want to ruffle feathers the DNR. It is I-75, it is the limit/put and take theory.
I have fished the lakes you mentioned because Minnesota is a destination for musky anglers and like I said Michigan has LSC, yeah!!!
Even Indiana is a destination state heck you've been there.
How many times can you tell the state what to do, how much help/money can we give them.
It sounds like you want to fight the catch and kill fisherman and the spearers. Like you want to save the delayed mortality fish and that is more important than actually fishing and maybe you're right but I think
the battle is with the state. Instead of telling Michigan what we want, we should ask them what they want and go from there.
By the way how many 1000's of acres is Vermillion and Mille Lacs, and we cant even stock Sanford right???
Dan – This isn't about feelings and we can't correlate this and QDM. If the state of the fishery warrants changes then the changes should be made. QDM and trophy regs are not the same as protecting the fishery for all to enjoy. If the fishery doesn't need any changes then I wouldn't support a change just because it goes with how I feel. If the northern lakes need protection then I believe the dates Duke proposed meet those needs without taking too much away from any angling group.
This is not like any other fish. Muskies are unlike trout, salmon, walleye, etc. and are not managed as a food AND sportfish. Muskellunge are intended to provide a trophy fishery, it's in the mangement plan. So, with that in mind all management practices should do thier best to provide that opportunity. My idea of trophy and Jo Anglers idea of trophy are two different things. I am not willing to impose my ideals on another angler. I am willing to educate that angler so they can make and informed decision to harvest or not to harvest.
The muskellunge is most similar to the Sturgeon. If you look at the changes in that management direction over the last 20 years you'll see that anglers had to give up quite a bit to ensure certain fisheries survived. The fish in the northern chains and some drowned rivermouth lakes need help or they will eventually be gone.
I like May 15th better . I want at least 2 weeks to fish in peace before the hordes hit the water on Memorial day. Changing the opener takes away from any choice I have relating to the weather and conditions. I do not like the idea of changing the opener. I would rather find a way to get spotteds stocked into those chains and leave it the way it is. Mike and Michelle
Duke, you make a great argument. It's pure honesty and integrity, and that's exactly what we want. You are absolutely right in your philosophy, but I'm unsure as the to accuracy of the premise or effect of the argument. Maybe you, or Will, (or any more seasoned or learned angler who wants to do so) could answer some questions for me.
Do many spearers specifically and/or primarily target muskies when spearing? I've never been a spearer, so I hope you'll pardon my ignorance if I'm way off here. My guess is it's uncommon, and that speared muskies are primarily incidental to pike spearing or general "fish spearing" trips. I realize this is key and I could be very wrong about this.
If it is in fact the case that the spearers do relatively little specific targeting of muskies, would it be possible to then increase protection of muskies from spearing via the aforementioned seasonal changes (or any other regulation)? Will, I think your point about muskies being unique, or elite, is very pertinent to this. The sturgeon seem a great example. In other words, would it be possible to protect muskies from spearing without attacking or supporting the "elimination of an entire sporting interest". We know there is quite a bit of precedent for protecting specific endangered species. Could the DNR keep the spearers happy with the freedom to take the more abundant esox species they currently enjoy (and I hope PRIMARILY enjoy), along with all the other species available for spearing out there?
To state it another way, could the potential closed winter season be specific to muskies alone? If it also would include the other species, then Duke's point is utterly correct. If the DNR could keep the regulation particular to muskies, then we can have some more good discussion.
My hope is that since muskies are rare in most waters when compared to other species, that the removal or lessening of muskie spearing could somehow be a very small blip on the radar. Again, is the general or restricted prohibition of sturgeon spearing an "elimination of an entire sporting interest"? Does anyone have any insight into the political climate about this? Will, do you know if this could ever be a possibility? Could the club, or you, have any opportunity to shape this climate?
Perhaps someone who knows the history of sturgeon spearing can draw some parallels to what potentially could happen with the muskie. Was there ever a time when the DNR tightened restriction on sturgeon spearing and the spearers protested loudly? How much difficulty was there in instituting the lottery for the sturgeon spearing? If there was difficulty, is anyone familiar with the sequence of events that brought it to fruition?
Will, you've stated that you believe much of the problem with some of our northern lakes is greater due to fishing during potential spawning times, more so than spearing. Can you share any more examples as to your thinking? Any more info? This is a very interesting comment (to me) you've made.
I welcome any knowledge and comment about these questions.
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Part of Duke's post:
"This aint gonna be easy… and man I hate to do it, but I have to take us back a step further even from a general concensus. This is just one man's opinion of course, for what its worth. The one thing that everyone has agreed on so far is a closure during the January-February hard water spearing period.
But I can't do it, can't go along with that. I cannot support the elimination of ANY sporting interest, for anyone. Even when it contradicts so strongly with my own personal interests, and goes against best fisheries management practices. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see each and every muskie protected to a greater extent, and ESPECIALLY those Northern natural reproduction waters hanging on by a thread. But I just can't feel good about targeting the spearing community so directly, and absolutely, to do it. "
John,
I don't think there is any doubt that there is a segment of the spearing community that is targeting muskies. In certain areas, especially traditional spearing strongholds like the northern LP, I would bet they make a up a strong majority actually. Make no mistake, it is a trophy hunting activity, and not unlike any of us they are not all that interested in throwing at 25" northerns all day. The thrill in spearing is seeing the gator head come into the hole, and then how big of a thud they make when flopped on top of the ice.
Hey, Duke, thanks for the info. I was afraid you were going to say something like that. You're a good honest man. To try to regionalize it, I hear there's some muskie-specific targeting in the west end of the U.P. as well. Thanks for answering one of my questions. I was hoping that it might be the case that a fair share of the muskie-specific spearers were doing so because of the fact that we have stocked lakes, and that the native populations primarily were victims of incidental spearing. I guess my hopes get the best of me sometimes. Thanks again.
After seeing too many 1st weekend 40# pounders killed by walleye guys I couldn't agree more with Kevin and John E Sox, the fishery is way bigger than the fisherman. I would rather be able to take my granddaughter fishing muskie on my favorite lakes than fish a couple early days each season. I would have no problem starting last saturday in May or June 1st something like that.
Or if not, Why not push for a catch and release early season ala bass? It seems that the DNR has set that precedent already why not transition the muskie season to something like that?
John C,
I know a guy who bow hunts deer and spears musky and that's it. He is as avid about those two activities as anyone on this board is about musky fishing. I also met a guy at the T.C. sports show last year that has one of the most impressive? portfolios of trophy muskies he has speared. He has been spearing for 40+ years and only targets musky, he said the only fish he will register is the next state record. The true sad thing is he lives in Antrim county and he has never fished for them with rod and reel.
Wow, thanks for the first-hand info, John & David, but you're breaking my heart. Antrim county, Dave? You're really breaking my heart! I guess I can only hope the generations to follow don't continue the "old guys' " (spearing) traditions!
Hmm… Dave. In the L.P. we have an over-population of the hooved animals and an under-population of the toothy finned creatures. If only we could convince that fellow to target the more populous animals.
Thanks for the sad info.
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"John C,
I know a guy who bow hunts deer and spears musky and that's it. He is as avid about those two activities as anyone on this board is about musky fishing. I also met a guy at the T.C. sports show last year that has one of the most impressive? portfolios of trophy muskies he has speared. He has been spearing for 40+ years and only targets musky, he said the only fish he will register is the next state record. The true sad thing is he lives in Antrim county and he has never fished for them with rod and reel."
Some interesting perspectives indeed! I've experienced several similar discussions on other Musky boards in the past. Many of the same issues arise.
My 2 cents:
I believe that it is difficult for many of us to put our resources, in this case, Michigan musky fishery, ahead of our own personal needs. I am very passionate about musky fishing, as many of you are. I would love to be able to fish on a daily basis. I also realize that I would love to see the state of Michigan become a premier or atleast vastly improved musky fishery, including developing trophy lakes. I realize that it becomes difficult for the DNR to manage our musky waters with added rules and different regulations but ultimately this is the direction that we need to move.
I would agree with a Dec. 31 close date for the southern half of Michigan and a Dec. 15 close date for the northern lower and UP. I do believe that there are other alternatives and/or possibilities though.
I have mixed feeling about opening dates. There is a big part of me that feels that we should be protecting our northern lakes from pre-spawn fishing. With that being said I would really like for the DNR and MMA to develop a short and long term plan for moving in a direction that I mentioned earlier, towards developing some premier musky lakes in Michigan, other than LSC. Most, but not all, of these potential lakes are located in either the upper lower pennisula or the UP. Stocking fish in many of our smaller lakes , although serving a purpose, does not do much in the way of developing potentially quality fisheries. Don't get me wrong, there is a need for the current 300-500 acre fisheries but if our intent,…hey…what is our intent?, is to improve and develop some trophy fisheries then we should be focusing on some of the larger northern lakes.
I do believe that it can be done. That we can develop a better fishery but it will take planning, DNR committment, MMA committment and lots of eductaion.
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