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several variations.

Works great, last a long time and is totally throw-able and a dream to tie. Thanks for the reference several years back Matt.

Thats it! Good stuff…

ive caught a few fish in canada that had a giant J-sucker hook that some local prob used to get a muskie.. Luckily the musky i caught had not died, and clearly swallowed the hook, which went through the body and was coming out the side of the fish. Completely rusted out at this point, just lucky the fish lived. I pulled the hook out and hopefully it survived

I use 100 and 130 flouro for my fly leaders. I used to use 80 and before that I used 50 or 60 lb wire.

First of all, lemme say that no, it's never right to disregard bite-offs and every effort should be made to keep fish attached; not just for the sake of the life and health of the fish, but to get it in the net! Let me also say we're speaking in generalities and not absolutes. The same as you can get bit off by a 38" fish with 200 lb FC and bass guys land state records on 8 lb test. I don't think bite-offs should be part of the game and I despise the purists as much as anyone!

But I think it's tough to just say "60# is too light" and leave it at that. I'd say in many, maybe most cases, it is. But there's trollers that use 80 lb flouro (and I know of a handful of LSC trollers that use 60#), and (if/when I casted gear) I cast with 230 lb, so there's a ton of room across the different methods and even fisheries themselves.

First when speaking of fly fishing, it has to be remembered we simply can't put the force on a fish that we can with gear. Hooksets, straight-line pull, pressure from reeling it in…you just can't put the force on with a fly rod you can with gear. Of course a muskie's teeth are just as sharp, no matter what you catch her with but the force of pull from the angler is a contributing factor to the ease with which a leader is cut. Pulling a leader with a Big Nasty and 100 lb Power Pro will put "X" amount of force on a leader across a fish's teeh and a fly rod will put "Y" amount of force. They're different forces.

The next is the fishery itself. Those of us that fly fish big water are significantly in the minority. Most flyfishermen don't fish LSC, big MN water or Georgian Bay. Google fly fishing muskie images and you'll see mostly drift boats on smaller rivers and admittedly…not often massive fish. Again, I'm speaking in generalities….plenty of big fish and 50's on a fly…but I'd guess the average fish and fishery for fly fishing is 2/3's the size of guys on gear and their water. A lot of the guys I tie for, I ask them where and how they're fishing and what kind of fish they see on average. And many, many of them are targeting and seeing sub-40" fish…many mid 30's are their average fish. If I was in a little river that had a 40 at the top of the heap, I'd probably downsize to smaller flies and 80# too. Fishing LSC and MN like I normally do…yeah, 100 is my minimum and 130 is what I use when I'm fishing Grassy in the fall…35's and 40's aren't average there! But you likely wouldn't use 100 lb for 32" pike. No need to use it across the board when you're in 32" muskie water.

We've also got norms in muskie fishing that tilt us toward the heavy side. I tell friends who fish for halibut with 100 lb Tuffline that we also use 100 lb in muskie fishing and they laugh at me. Tell a tarpon or a billfish guy that we use 100 lb and it's the same thing. Yes, it's for casting the baits, the hooksets and driving in huge hooks, but it hasn't always been this way. Now the muskie world is so far overgunned for these fish that anything less than shark gear is considered light. Don't misunderstand me, I used Big Dawgs, Trinidads and a Tranx and all the massive stuff because I did want that advantage over the fish and I did like those huge baits. And the big gear helps make them more fishable…casting, retrieving and fighting. But our dads and grandpas didn't use anything like we do now. I had to forcefully convince my Dad that he needed more than 50 lb braid and a 200-size reel for muskies….because he caught muskies on much less before I was born; and he's right. That "loaded for bear" mentality runs over into flyfishing as well. And that's fine…I'm all for it and I use heavy fly gear…even heavier than a lot of friends do. But again, if I'm fishing the upper Mississippi in front of Mom and Dad's house and I might see a 38, I'm not casting a 10 wt with a heavy leader like I do here or on Leech. But to put it in perspective, an average bluefish leader can be 40-80 lb FC or even mono and guys do ling cod (huge teeth like a muskie) with 60-100 lb all the time.

So don't think I'm disagreeing with Matt or Will, as I have nothing but immense amounts of respect for both of these guys and put them both at the top of the muskie game. I'm just suggesting that we educate guys to take everything into consideration when choosing leaders or any gear, based on where they're at, what they're doing and how they're doing it. But for me to say that 60 or 80 is too light because I use 130 on LSC in the fall is like a conventional gear guy telling me that 130 is too light because he uses 200 with blades and pounders (which I do when I threw gear), and I have been told that.

And that's just my [smilie=2c.gif] on it.

And I agree with Scott…the rod in the mouth pose is the absolute worst aspect of fly fishing. I never do it myself and even made clients take their Loomis out of their mouth before I'd snap a pic!

"Will Schultz" said:
[quote="esoxfly"]
And I agree with Scott…the rod in the mouth pose is the absolute worst aspect of fly fishing. I never do it myself and even made clients take their Loomis out of their mouth before I'd snap a pic!

Worst? Not IMO, it's a distant second to using FC leaders for toothy fish.

Why even take the chance? A 40# 49 strand leader will provide much better action to a fly than flouro and completely rule out a bite off. I must be stupid because I fail to see the benefit of using FC for muskies or pike when they're going to inhale the lure.

Agreed totally. Ron Lehman (retired Dentist) was the guy who I took out twice . He had taken Tarpon, Snook, all the trout and salmon species and a nice Canadian Pike but had never caught a Musky on a Fly Rod. At the time we had no Fly guys here so no one really knew what to advise him on using. He agonized over the choices and took my advice and used surflon coated 49 strand stainless steel. I think his was 30 pound but may have been 40. It was real strong and limp like Braid line. His fish Jumped like 4 times and really tested his tackle but Ron was a great angler and we put his first Musky a 45 inch October fish in the net. Ron is disabled now and can not ever fly fish again due to terrible problems with his back.

One thing both of us agreed on was that the tippet/leader had to be bite proof , light and supple. The fly he used was a chartruse and white Tarpon fly and he hooked the fish right in the corner of the mouth. The fish was in about 1 foot of water when it struck and had no where to go but up. It was a classic scene Ill never forget. The line pull hook set, the fish taking the slack on the first run and the drag going on that very expensive fly reel. Ron had worked all day casting with very little results and we were on the last set up before dark. I learned a great deal about how a good fly fisherman approaches a species and does his homework before taking to the water. I wish Ron could meet you guys and join you for some fly fishing. I just wish he could walk again. Mike

"Will Schultz" said:
[quote="esoxfly"]
And I agree with Scott…the rod in the mouth pose is the absolute worst aspect of fly fishing. I never do it myself and even made clients take their Loomis out of their mouth before I'd snap a pic!

Worst? Not IMO, it's a distant second to using FC leaders for toothy fish.

Why even take the chance? A 40# 49 strand leader will provide much better action to a fly than flouro and completely rule out a bite off. I must be stupid because I fail to see the benefit of using FC for muskies or pike when they're going to inhale the lure.

The benefit is that I've never had a bite-off or a failure with it and I've not had good luck with wire leaders, so I must be stupid because I can't catch fish on wire and I have had them fail on me; though admittedly, not on bite-offs. Though I did have a 50# halibut shred 30# wire, so it's not impervious to damage.

If you want to advocate wire only and chastise me for using flouro, that's your perogative Will and I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise; that's fine and I respect your opinion even if you think mine is the worst thing in fly fishing. But in my defense, I've never had a flouro leader fail on fly or gear, every single one casting and numerous fish over 50, so I guess I've just been stupid and lucky since I don't like wire and I've never had a bite off! LOL. I personally think flouro of proper weight is sufficient for muskies…and I'm not alone. It was within the last week or two that Saric was on TV advocating flouro leaders, and I know several guides who only use flouro for every bait in their boat, so I think I'm in OK company and I have confidence in it.

I've been using flouro only for probably 8 years now and I'll be sticking with it. I'm not near the expert you are Will and this is your sandbox so I'll probably get beat up for this and lose this discussion, but I fished wire long enough to want to try something else and when I did, it worked out just fine for me.

As for action, yeah light wire may have better action, but I get so carried away on the size of my flies, that 130# flouro doesn't hold the fly down and the fish don't seem to mind.

Wire for you guys. [smilie=bow.gif] And I'll be the odd man out and use flouro. 😀

I will admit, I had John make me some 450# 49 strand fly leaders for salmon shark though. [smilie=biggrin.gif]

Well then cool, we're in agreement on the light line stuff.

I started with the benefit of FC being that it's not wire and wire gave me fits. But one thing I've come to think is that at time when a fly presentation works best, the fish can be neutral to negative and even a bit skittish and the flouro helps. I even went from a 14" leader to a 30 to a 48" because I was getting follows on shorter leaders this year.